Information Marketing JV Partner Webinar – August 24, 2011 (Transcript Available)
Fred: Welcome. Thanks for coming everyone, and for those of you who aren’t familiar with our process here, you’ll find out. Avish, since you and I have been talking, one of the things I think we should be talking about, and by the way, this is the Avish speaking website, speaking expert site, which has a pop-up that comes up, and that’s it. There’s a bunch of stuff.
Now, progress? I know you’ve been running around, any progress on this site?
Avish: Not a whole lot new on this site other than a blog post or two, and most of the work’s been on the other two, the coaching launch and the rewrite of the speaking school. I will say, and I’m not sure what’s causing this, it’s a good thing, though I still—the statistics in Google Analytics, the opt-in percentage is going up, which is good.
Fred: What’s the increase been?
Avish: Well, for the past month now, we’re at about—I just looked at it today, but the past month has been 11% opt-in.
Avish: Yesterday, for some reason specifically, it was like 40%, but that’s going to go up and down, so I’m not sure what’s causing that change.
Fred: And how many people opted in yesterday? What’s 40% mean? Does that mean 4 out of 10 or something?
Avish: Yeah, it was like 6 out of 15, something like that.
Fred: Super-duper! Well, that’s good to know, and I was telling Bill and Bill brought up the fact that I had been sending out e-mails that were a little bit—they had more than one message, which is a problem. We’ll talk about that later here. Let’s see here, Avish. Opt-ins going up, how many total do we have there now, total on the opt-in list?
Avish: I’ve got to look it up. It’s around 100, but I’ve got to look it up to get the exact number.
Fred: Yeah, whatever, so that’s good. Let’s see here. The other thing is that one of the things that you and I were doing, which I think is pretty relevant to the rest of the group is that Avish and I are currently creating the latest, and you can see what I’m writing, right Avish?
Fred: The latest incarnation of the Seminar on Seminars, and what we’re doing is we’ve broken it up into a total of about close to about 40 total units of information. What we’re doing is going through each one of those elements and we’re talking about it and breaking it up into 40 separate pieces so that this product that we create will give people, as it should, the ability to go and jump to a specific point in the process.
So if they want to know about direct mail, they can click directly on that, etc., etc. Our 40 total units of information, which is basically the outline that is on this site, we’ll just show them that real quick. Seminar on Seminars, if I can type, and so Seminar on Seminars is this one. What we did is Avish and I are going through, cancel, we’re going through each one of the elements that’s in the outline here. We started with this.
We did an Introduction. We talk terminology, selecting a topic; all of these major headings here with the red square in front of them became our different topics. What I did is I went through each one and looking at it, I just looked at it before—right after we got off our call, Avish, and the segments go anywhere from a low of about 3 minutes to a high of close to 20 minutes. I’m hoping when it’s all done, we’ll have whatever we’ll have. I don’t want to artificially decide how much total information there is.
But the thing that’s good about this, Avish, and you can comment on this, one of the things I like about it is it feels like if somebody were wanting to start to do their own seminars, they could sit down and listen to this program and it would feel almost as if they were getting like a personal consultation, don’t you think?
Avish: Yeah, because we’re trying to make it very conversational where you’re giving lots of information, but not interjecting with questions and whatnot.
Fred: Yeah, and so we’ve gone through this outline, so when it’s all done—but the beauty of this is again, we’re going back to again, thin slicing everything as much as possible so that people can—and this is the thing that I like is that if I want to find the answer to a given topic, one of the things that frustrates me is I find something and it’s the big, fat ball of something and then I’ve got to find what it is specifically that I’m looking for in that big ball of something, whatever it is.
The problem is is that I end up wanting just one small piece of that, and so hopefully by doing this, we can allow people to say, “Jump to,” if somebody wants to know about Website Strategies, they can go to this section here. Or if they wanted to know about Seminar Delivery: At the Seminar Itself, they could go to that section. It allows them to jump to whatever particular area they want. This isn’t any big revelation, but I think it’s a good way to do it. Avish, what are your thoughts on that?
Avish: I like it. It’s certainly easier to do it the other way, just talk for a long time on one track, but I think, yeah, I know when I get information, it’s a lot nicer when you can just jump from track to track, so it makes more sense that way.
Fred: Yeah, so we’ll be able to—and similar to the—and by the way, Bill, this is something that we’re going to use as a program that we will give to all the different groups, which is PublishingABook.com and PaidPublicSpeaker.com. One of the things is that I wanted to let Bill know that when both of these—we’re going to do a—we’re re-recording the latest version of the Seminar on Seminars and we’re going to be re-recording my basic, sort of, one-day info product seminar or my intro marketing business kind of thing.
The PublishingABook.com and PaidPublicSpeaker.com, we’ll be able to add these very important elements to that. Bill, can you hear me?
Fred: Cool, so the other thing is—Avish, thanks. One of the things that Bill and I were just e-mailing back and forth about is the concept of and I think what we’re—I think it’s probably more accurate and Avish, you’re involved in this too, so with PaidPublicSpeaker, I think the last one you sent me had 21 people who said, “Yes,” and were accepted. Is that about right?
Bill: Right, who were approved when we were doing screening for both of these programs, because we wanted people who can work together pretty well, and we also wanted to make it a little more of a hurdle. They had to do some action to apply, so 21 people were approved, yes.
Fred: Okay, and then out of those, 13 have paid, right?
Bill: Right, now this is a program that they have to pay 3 months in advance, $297 apiece, so that’s an $891 upfront investment.
Avish: Is this the Publishing a Book Program you’re talking about?
Bill: Yeah, sorry, sorry, yeah, you’re on the wrong one. You’re on Publishing a Book, take that up there, and it’s a similar project as Paid Public Speaking, but it’s not the same numbers, yeah.
Fred: Now the Paid Public Speaker one has that, but we’ve got some different numbers on that, right?
Bill: Yeah, I mean look here, the Paid Public Speaker one, we have 3 people already that are approved and paid. Let me look here. We have 14 people approved and 3 people have paid. Several people just said, “Oh, it’s a little…” or one person said it’s too expensive, I can’t do it.
Fred: Right, and so their commitment there of—so 3 have paid, right?
Bill: Now that’s a bigger commitment. Yeah, that’s a 6-month commitment at $297 apiece and so that’s a $1782 upfront commitment.
Fred: Okay, so now what I suggest…
Bill: We were sort of doing this A/B split test because we had tried a 6-month commitment for our speaker one and it went pretty well and we thought, “Well, yeah, but some people balked on the money. Let’s try it 3 months for our writing one and a 6-month for the speaker’s one and see which one fills up better or more quickly.”
Fred: Yeah, and I mean I think that if this up here works better, it’s less money upfront. The question is I don’t know what total dollars will do, but Avish, this is what I suggested to Bill, which is that when people have said, “Yes,” to the Paid Public Speaker course and only 3 have paid, my thought is to then—to give them a deadline for payment. Let’s say whatever that deadline is is Date X.
After Date X, immediately send them a downsell, and that downsell, I have a feeling that at least—well, we sort of were screwed up because some of the stuff that had to do with the downsell, were the websites working correctly from the beginning or not because this’ll determine…
Bill: No, no, no, no, they weren’t. They weren’t.
Bill: The publishing one certainly wasn’t working. The speakers one was working, if you stayed on and listened to the whole video, but now it’s working no matter what. It wasn’t working when we first sent out our announcements to our lists.
Fred: Right, so had it been working, it would have been a more valid test, but since it wasn’t working, obviously what happened was that—and the thing about it is is that definitely our goal with this particular one, with Paid Public Speaker, I’ll just say PPS, is that we want to have—it’d be great if we had a thousand people who did the self-paced program.
Bill: We would like that.
Fred: Yes, that would be great. Now, my thought…
Bill: That’s $97 a month.
Fred: Yeah, oh sorry, yes, $97 a month and so…
Bill: And there’s no live coaching with that. That’s just you do it on your own. You get all our products, which is over $6,000 worth of products, but you’re doing it on your own.
Fred: Yep, and so my thought was, Avish, that it’d be nice if that were the facts, so we were going for the high end here like we did last time, but my thought is that maybe we need the high, the middle, and the low-end price points here. My thought is that we have the low-end, which is the self-paced, and here’s what I suggested to Bill is that after a certain date, we offer people the middle option, which is $197 paid monthly, which gives them access to the products for that month and one, count them, one coaching call for 90 minutes.
Now, I think that this is something—I suggested to Bill that we just do with an e-mail to the people who said, “Yes” here, the 14 people who said, “Yes,” but only 3 have paid. But the thing is, out of the additional 10, we have 10 people who have been mute. We have 1 person who said, “Too much money.” Is that correct, Bill?
Fred: So my thought is…
Bill: And I showed him or I sent him to the self-paced and he said, “Oh, not for me. I’ll just try to save up some and do the coaching, the live coaching one.”
Fred: So my thought is that the people that have remained mute, for them, dollars are still an issue. My thought is, Avish, that we go to this as the middle, sort of downsell, which is these people got excited enough, they filled out an application, we said yes, we sent them the link to pay, and they balked. We’re going to say, “You know what? We’re testing something right now. We’re testing a program, if that’s a little bit too pricey for you, $197, that’s the only commitment, month-to-month,” like it’s a month-to-month lease commitment and they get access to the products for that month and access to the discussion group for that month. I think that’s worth testing. What do you think, Avish?
Avish: Yeah, I think it’s worth testing if it’s the format where they’ll get it—if they haven’t signed up for the whole one. I don’t think sending them 3 options at once is…
Fred: Oh, no, no, no, you’re missing my point. Only the people who sign up and are approved who don’t pay after a certain period of time are sent an e-mail, not even to a site, that talks about this option here.
Avish: Okay, yeah, I think that’s a smart idea. I’d still like to see how it works.
Bill: And the only thing I would add to that, if you read Dan Ariely’s book on Predictability Irrational and you remember this part…
Fred: The highs and lows…
Bill: There is some evidence in behavioral economics, yeah, if you do a high, low, and a middle, and the middle being close to the high, low, you double the sales of the middle according to Williams-Sonoma and one other thing which wasn’t exactly a test, but he did a test on it on the Economist magazine.
Fred: I don’t think…
Bill: So there’s some evidence that if you offer three things…
Fred: I don’t think it’s an accurate comparison.
Bill: It’s not exactly. You’re right. It’s not exactly, but it’ll be interesting to test that as well, to test the 3 things. What happened with Williams-Sonoma was that a high-end bread maker, a low-end bread maker, when they added a super high-end one, the sales of the middle, the previously high-end one double.
Fred: I think that when you go out to people with 3 options, I think that might be a good one, but I think that we might be hurting ourselves to do that, and I think that this method of sort of like—sort of the silent sell to the middle rather than giving—I think that it’s funny to me because I’m just curious, if we had the websites working properly from Day 1, I’m curious as to how many people—so let’s just say that the reason why people aren’t signing up is because they don’t want to self-paced course. What they want is they want some coaching.
Bill: Yes, I would assume so. I mean again, we didn’t have a good test because it wasn’t working properly right at first, and I’m surprised we haven’t sold more self-paced. I think we’ve only sold one and I had to hand sell that, if you will.
Fred: Yeah, and so if that’s the case, then maybe what we need to do is we just need—looking at these numbers, not just the Paid Public Speaker, but the PublishingABook.com as well, I’m thinking that this, that really what people are saying, it seems like we want something in some cases, some people are willing, and again, we want to make that expensive program the elite program and make it elite in a bunch of different ways.
But the other program, the middle program, maybe we could get back a sizable percentage of the people, at least to start them off for a month and give them a taster, and then allow them if they wanted to to whatever they paid, have that apply towards the bigger course, if they want to jump in.
Bill: Maybe. I think that’s maybe in a way more complex.
Fred: Too complicated?
Bill: But I think the other thing I can say is that I wouldn’t count those people who haven’t paid out yet. I would say based on our previous experience from our last launch, about three-quarters of those people will ultimately pay and a quarter won’t.
Fred: Oh, really? Okay, so what do you think…?
Bill: Yeah, they’re just flaky. They’re busy and with another reminder, I’ll probably get three or four more for the publishing one. I’ll probably get three or four more with the speaking one. It’s a shame to have to remind them because we gave them an incentive, but that’s my experience in the past. There’s a few people who’ll just say exactly what that one guy says, “Whoa! I didn’t really realize when I applied it was so much money.” Then we can downsell to them.
I think going out with other e-mails when we fill the program and say, “Oh, and some people couldn’t get in. Some people thought it was a little too pricey for them. Here are our other options.”
Fred: I agree. I think that we definitely should…
Bill: It may be a good one.
Fred: Yeah, I think we should exhaust the amount of time we spend trying to promote obviously the highest-end program, but I’m just thinking I sort of like the idea of I think you’re right. Let’s not try and give people an inexpensive option or a less expensive option when they still are probably you said, again 75% is the previous record, eventually pay.
Bill: Yeah, yeah, but we’ll wait them out a little, send them a reminder, but I think you’re right. I mean I think it’s to our benefit to have various price points, number one, to see what the marketplace responds to, number two, we’ve got to find our people, but the other thing is I was thinking about this just before we started is that you guys price your programs often pretty low, and I price my programs high.
I was doing a bootcamp for a thousand bucks for years and people were responding to that, and I just stopped doing those live ones, and I’m sending out programs for $300, $250, and your typical one, Fred, is $67 or $97 or $47 or whatever it may be. I don’t know how much yours are, Avish.
Fred: Except the $3,000 one.
Bill: Right, I mean you have some higher-end things, but I think a lot of the people on your list are used to getting the $67, $47 offer, and all of a sudden, there’s one for $297 a month or $891 or $1782, and it’s a shock (inaudible 18:53) to people and I think you have to sort of train people up to that price. I think it’s way worth it and the people that are in our current program have told us that’s it way worth it, and they’re going to make their money back within the first speaking and first one or two speaking engagements that are paid.
We already have some people in that first group, for the speaker things, that because of our coaching, raise their fees and they’re already making back the money that they paid for the program because they didn’t know how to set their fees right and other people who didn’t necessarily raise their fees, but they’re selling a lot more product when they’re speaking, and so obviously it’s worth it if we can get that across to people that they can make their investment back with their book when it sells, for the publishing one, and the ancillary products, the auxiliary products, the info products that we’re coaching them to do, and more sales for their books and the speaking ones and somehow we haven’t quite gotten that across to people.
Or, again, it’s the economy and it’s hard for people to pay that much money upfront.
Fred: The other thing is that I’m thinking of is, Bill, let’s say, and Avish, you can be the guinea pig. Hey, Dave, are you on, Dave Hamilton? Dave is muted.
Bill: He’s muted. He’s muted.
Dave: I’m here.
Avish: Hey, Dave.
Fred: Why don’t you guys…
Dave: Hey, guys.
Fred: Yeah, cool, why don’t you listen to this sort of pitch that I’ll give you and tell me whether or not you think it’s pretty exciting? Let’s say that you were really into the idea of getting your book published. Obviously, your first option would be to get published by a traditional publisher, but you’re thinking if you can’t do that, then you’re going to go the self-publishing route. Let’s just say that I told you that I would let you get coached or I would let you get coached for a period of time by someone who had over 30 books out there and had a book that got them on Oprah.
And you were going to receive personal coaching from someone like that. Would that not be worth a couple thousand dollars to most people, don’t you think?
Dave: I think so. I think people—I went through this because my dad wrote his first book and we were kind of feeling our way through it and I think we had in our mind you’re not going to publish a book for $500. You need to not only pay to get it done right, but you get stuck very quickly with how do you do the layout, what software, how do you design it? There’s so many mistakes you can make, to have somebody with that credibility guide you through, I would think, absolutely.
Fred: Now, the thing about it is though, is that your dad is an example. His dad is involved in negotiating and negotiating workshops, primarily for the folks in the real estate field, but with negotiating, I mean wouldn’t your dad prefer to get a contract with a major publisher?
Dave: Well, you’d have to ask him. I think he was thinking kind of what you teach that the book is just for credibility. I don’t think he ever really thought he was going to make a lot of money with it. He just wanted to have that as a line on his résumé and hand it out to people, and it actually works very well that way.
Fred: Okay, so then, Bill, I mean—but I think that most of the people—the other thing to take into account, Bill, is the difference between your list and mine. You’re the definitive rock star in a fairly small market, not really that small.
Bill: Yeah, my people know me, that’s right. My people know me. Well, I don’t know. You’re a rock star in your market. I don’t know if it’s as small a market as mine, but we looked at my niche and we discovered there are a million people in my niche, which shocked both of us. But, yeah, I don’t know, you’re a rock star in your particular niche of info products and I know information products, I think, but yeah, I think—and again, if somebody’s like Dave’s dad and they want to self-publish, I would go to you because I know I’m going to make at least $500, maybe a thousand, maybe $2,000 worth of either lost time or mistakes with self-publishing, and you know that route really well.
Plus, in these programs, we give people access to our person who will get them on Smashwords and Kindle for their ePublishing, if they want to do it. She’ll just walk them right through it. I think it’s well worth it, but somehow we haven’t communicated that as compellingly as we could.
I don’t know. I shouldn’t say that because we have more applicants for our book publishing program than we have spaces, so that’s good, if they all pay. Right now we don’t have quite as many applicants for the speaking program, but we just started that a couple days ago. Monday, I think, was our first day. Let’s give it a little time.
I think we’ll still get enough applicants for that speaking thing and enough paid people that we should be okay.
Fred: Yeah, but I think that, Bill, yours is an example of—my niche is again, I think that people—information marketing, it’s information/Internet marketing, of which there are tons of gurus, including me.
Bill: That’s true.
Fred: I think that your space is much tighter, and that’s why I like your niche better, frankly, because it’s much tighter and you are—it’s easier to become the biggest king or one of the bigger kings.
Bill: Well, the other thing is that there’s a lot of people in my niche who are successful already, who are making really good money, but they just don’t want to work so hard, and I think there’s a lot of people in Internet marketing and information marketing that are wanna-bes, that are saying, “I’d like to make money and I’d like to find,” they don’t have such a career base thing, like almost everybody in my niche, which is psychotherapists, has a career.
They either have a job or they have a private practice, and a lot of the people in our segment that respond to these offers are in private practice. They just don’t want to keep trading their hours for money and they want to go bigger. So I think that’s really why my list has been a lot more responsive because they have the money and they want out of their current situation. They’re already successful. They want to shift their success in another direction.
Fred: And the fact that you’re a bigger rock star given that what, your prominence in the market versus mine in a much larger market, I think.
Bill: Yeah, I think that’s right.
Fred: Because I mean if I’m Frank Kern or John Reese, I think that that becomes a different thing.
Bill: I think that’s right. But I think that there’s another thing that we have to offer that those guys don’t in a certain way and that is with Avish and you and me, when we do a program together, or you and me when we do a program together, we have two or three different points of view in different areas of help and expertise and you’ve got two coaches, three coaches. I think that it’s a unique program and I think that’s partly what people respond to too.
They’ve got the Fred part, the Avish part, and the Bill part, and we each bring something different to the table and if they’re in that group, they actually know we’ve experienced it, that Fred has one thing to say. Bill has another thing to say. Avish has another thing to say, and they’re all good things, but they’re slightly different and also you get triple the attention when you’re in the speaking ones.
Fred: And just to go back for a second, I did have a conversation, folks, with the person you sent me, Vel, and my conversation with her basically came to the—we came to the conclusion that it wasn’t really about whether or not one of us was not female. It was about the money. That’s an example of someone who I would immediately, perhaps, want to try this downsell of this one, the middle ground here, because I think that for her, she would bite at that right away.
Bill: Yeah, and the question is can we get enough people to make that worthwhile because if it’s only one person on the call, it’s not worthwhile. If it’s five people on the call and suddenly it’s worthwhile.
Fred: Yeah, well, the thing about it is is yeah, I’m pretty sure that over time my guess is that we have between 20 and 30 people per month on this. That’d be my guess.
Bill: Oh, that’d be great.
Fred: But again, that’s…
Bill: I don’t know where that’ll come from, but that’s good.
Fred: Meaning to say, you’re not really sure of my numbers, which I…
Bill: I’d love if there were 20 or 30. That would be my favorite option because it’s way easier to do it, and I also think with those people, you don’t make the discussion board. It’s really the coaching calls and the products and that’s it. Don’t mess with that discussion board.
Fred: Yeah, cool, and then what happens is every time they pay, if we go this route here, then every time they pay, they get sent a link to get just those products for that particular period, right?
Bill: Absolutely, for that month. It’s the same thing as the self-paced. It’s a monthly module. If they want to stay in for 12 months, that’s great, and if they want to go to our graduate program, if it works, that’s fine. But then they don’t get the discussion. They don’t get such ongoing care and concern from us on that discussion board as well as by e-mail and by phone. I think it’s a great option if we can sell it and again, once these programs fill, and I believe they will, the live coaching ones. I think that that is a great option to give people.
Fred: Okay, so by the way…
Bill: Most of those, the self-paced with one coaching group.
Fred: Yeah, and by the way, just so everybody knows, this program that I brought up here, Now Build Your Empire, and this is the next—this is the other option for anyone who has graduated from any of these programs. They can go to NowBuildYourEmpire.com, and I don’t know—I think you’re probably working on that this week, Bill, is just to take a look at the copy I sent you.
Bill: Yeah, I am.
Fred: And what we’re doing—let’s just show people, yours is Next Level Members, right?
Bill: NextLevelMembers.com, yeah.
Fred: So this is what we’re doing. The idea here is that Bill together a very, very simple site. Want to take your career to the next level? Basically it’s just a bunch of copy for people who sort of already know Bill, have been in some of his other programs, and it gives them—so what we’re trying to do is create where do people go when they graduate?
Bill: If they want that ongoing support.
Fred: Yeah, if they want the ongoing support. Now, this used to be $500. It was dropped to $400, and so ours is going to be $300, right?
Fred: Got it, okay, good. Jason, are you around? Jason is…
Jason: I’m here, Fred.
Fred: Oh, cool. Now what’s—why don’t you tell us what’s going on with you?
Jason: I’m cooking through a couple different projects, one of which is timely and in line with what you guys are talking about. I think—I don’t think, I know I’m going to have a first draft to my first physical book that’s going to happen by September 1st.
Jason: I’ve been burning the midnight oil to finish that thing up.
Jason: We’re doing a few—yeah, yeah, I’m excited about it and I’ll be looking to you guys to figure out how to leverage the book to get more speaking engagements, which is the other part of my business that’s starting to pick up a bit.
Fred: Well, tell us about that.
Jason: Well, the speaking engagements come from the website, and now I’m about 3-1/2 years into building this overnight information marketing business in the independent filmmaking space.
Jason: I’m so wealthy now. No, I’m just kidding.
Bill: What’s the book? What’s the book, Jason? What’s the name of it or what’s the content or the niche?
Jason: Well, I’m still working on the title, but what the book’s geared towards is this wave of independent filmmakers that now because the whole industry has been democratized, anybody with $2,000 can go out and grab a camera that produces cinematic results. In fact, they are. There’s about 9,000 movies made per year that you’ve never heard of.
The good part is these are the folks that visit FilmmakingStuff.com a lot of the time, so what it means is my market’s about 9,000 people that are hungry for a way to make, market, and sell their movies without the middleman, which is in line with…
Fred: And that’s your tagline here.
Jason: You got it. That’s really what I’ve been pushing, and it’s good because I’m becoming that guy and really where I lean my talks and sort of my niche within a niche or niche I like to say, because it rhymes with rich, I’m really gearing it towards independent filmmakers that want to go out and look at their independent filmmaking like any other business.
In other words, I have an idea for a product. I want to source a target audience. I want to reach that target audience. I want them to buy my movie eventually. How do you do that? My book’s going to cover a marketing plan in terms of, “Okay, you’re a filmmaker. You want to make a filmmaking business? Here’s how you do it and you don’t need Hollywood’s help.” And the clear distinction…
Fred: Hey, Jason.
Jason: Go ahead.
Fred: Two comments first off, I think from a grammatical standpoint and everybody else give me feedback if you agree or disagree, I think this should be Make, Market, and Sell Your Movie Without a Middleman, not Without The Middleman.
Bill: I don’t know. I think I could see either one. Okay, I’ve got your title for you, Jason.
Jason: Go for it, Bill, or do you want to e-mail to me so that we…?
Bill: No, no, that’s fine. No, no, you don’t need to compensate here. You’re going to own this niche, but it’s Your Own Green Light and then the subtitle is exactly your topic there, Make, Market, and Sell Your Movie Without the Middleman, Your Own Green Light.
Fred: Or I would say—I would add to that and say—I would say, “Yes, and green light yourself!”
Bill: Yeah, something like that. Yeah, something like that, green light yourself, that’s good, Make, Market, and Sell Your Movie Without the Middleman. I think the middleman is fine.
Bill: I think that’s fine. A middleman would work too, but you can test it out with some people and see. But again, just to let you in on one of the secrets in our books thing is that I did a study of best-selling book titles. I learned NLP or they talk about patterns, and I studied with Mel Erickson, who talked about patterns.
I looked at the patterns of their best-selling book title, and I’m not saying that it makes your book a best-selling book title, but you might as well follow success, is they were one to four words, the title. The subtitle could be as long as you want, but the subtitle should have a promise in it, as yours does, but title should be one to four words.
Fred: Now the other thing, Jason, that I would do is one to four word titles and then subtitle, you could just keep what you’ve got.
Bill: Keep your title line.
Fred: Yeah, I like that too, and I agree. I think the is probably better now that I hear the responses, but the other thing, Jason, is this. Similar to what Bill and Avish and I are doing, I think that here’s what sort of comes to mind for me. When I see this and I know how some of your people are, the film folks, so here’s my question to you, and just answer questions one at a time here.
Fred: Number one, who do you know, not as specific, how much has the largest—what has been the biggest payday for someone who has made and marketed their own movie without a middleman?
Jason: The largest…
Fred: Approximate number.
Jason: There’s a few different case studies out there. I’m not sure who the largest payday was.
Fred: Okay, give me an approximate.
Jason: Approximate? They were able to recoup their million dollar budget.
Fred: Okay, so they made a million bucks back on a million dollar budget? Okay, so that’s number one. Number two, my second question is this. If you had a system in place to do all the parts to sell your own movie without a middleman, in other words, if you were to have all of the things in place—because here, me as a filmmaker, I just want to make movies.
Now, you can sell me your program or your book on how to make money without a middleman or without the middleman. I will read it and go, “You know what? This guy Jason, this is great stuff. He really knows what he’s talking about. Let me call him up. Hey, Jason, could you do this for me?”
Jason: If that’s a question, Fred, yes, I’ll do that for your movie.
Fred: Okay, so now the question is have you done it before? You don’t have to answer these. My first question is have you done it before? How many people? Can I talk to them? How much have they made? How many of them have recouped their initial investment in the film? All of these questions would become very, very critical for me.
And if you eventually have it set up with a template, I think it becomes very much like everything else we’re talking about, which is do it yourself, do it with some group help, or do it with personal coaching.
Fred: I mean I think you’ve got the same model, right?
Jason: I do, actually.
Fred: And I think it would fit. I just think that you’re right. If there’s that many people making that many movies, which who knows, some of them are good, and the other thing is this. You should—I would think that you should be—I would love for you and I’d love to do this with you, by the way. I think you should set up the—we should set up a film festival for all these people that feel disenfranchised. Let’s make it what Sundance originally was intended to be, to find unknowns.
Have them submit digital films, the stuff that you deal with, and let’s have them submit it. Let’s have a committee that looks at them, and let’s hold this stuff, and I bet you could get a lot of notoriety doing that. And I don’t think that would be that difficult to do.
Jason: No, I’ve given some thought to that as well and I think one of the biggest things is even though everybody can make a movie and everybody can source it, well, not everybody can, but it’s possible to source the target audience out there. The difficulty as you well know from the publishing world is how do I find the people that want to read or want to engage in this stuff that I’m selling?
Fred: That’s where I think, sorry to interrupt, but that’s where I think where Bill pointed out to us what’s-his-name’s book, the one that is writing those books for the very specific audience, Bill?
Jason: It was John Locke, Bill, and I thank you for the recommendation. I actually read that book after you talked about it.
Fred: Yeah, I did too, but obviously didn’t read it well enough to remember his name.
Jason: I just remember the guy from what was the show, Lost?
Bill: Lost, yeah.
Dave: Lost, yeah.
Bill: Yeah, well, it’s interesting because I just read in the paper yesterday or in one of my newsletters that he sold the paperback print rights of that book to a big New York publisher.
Fred: Oh, by the way, just to let you guys know, I took it to my publishing seminar in Anaheim at the beginning of the month. I took a copy out of Entertainment Weekly and I don’t know if I showed you this, Bill, or any of you guys, because you weren’t there. I think only Gina—Jason, I think you saw this. Remember when I held up and read a little bit of the article from Entertainment Weekly about John Locke?
Jason: Yeah, it was some critic ripping him apart because he’s a really horrible writer.
Fred: Yeah, Entertainment Weekly…
Jason: And Bill, to that. You just mentioned that he just got a book deal after?
Bill: Yeah, well, he got a print book deal because he sold so many damn books. He actually says in his book, if you remember reading it, he says, “I’m not that great a writer.”
Fred: Yeah, well, the whole thing is, this was really…
Bill: I’m okay.
Fred: This was really funny to me because these Entertainment Weekly literary snobs were thumbing their noses at this guy and giving him a C- on this and a D on that, and you know what? John Locke, I’d like them to put his position in the publishing world in terms of number of dollars made this year, and I’m sure he’s on the top half of 1%.
Bill: That’s probably true. That’s the same thing they said about Stephen King, although I think Stephen King’s a little better writer than John Locke, but they said, “Oh, he’s not a literary writer.” They were giving it some literary (inaudible 40:04), and they hate people who sell a lot of books because that means that everybody can read them.
Fred: Yeah, and so God, I mean I think Jason, so Jason, are you doing the same thing which is basically doing John Locke kind of stuff, but for filmmakers?
Jason: Yeah, you got it, Fred. It looks like John somehow got into my brain, utilized my filmmaking strategies, and then put them to work for his books. No, kidding aside though…
Bill: And made millions of dollars.
Jason: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I want my royalties. But all of the kidding aside, yeah, it’s one of these things now where I think all of us as content producers have to figure out how to source the people that are going to buy what it is we’re selling. With movies, is we talked about well, or as I talk a lot about is what genre are we in? Who are we trying to target and really are there any other publications out there that make our job easier?
You’ll hear me talk a lot about the horror genre and different publications that are already targeting that market. I mean that’s one of my favorites because it’s from a marketing standpoint, easy.
Fred: Yeah, and I mean the thing about it is is that I would imagine that wasn’t it you that said that you could sort of go subgenre within that, which is lesbian horror movies or whatever it is?
Jason: Yeah, I found that often…
Bill: Zombie, lesbian zombie, I think it was.
Jason: Right, and the beauty is you could target that and you could start there and work your way backwards as opposed to saying, “I’m going to make a romantic comedy with a bunch of no-name actors,” people you’ve never heard of, made by a bunch of filmmakers you’ve never heard of. That’s just a harder sell.
Fred: Yeah, so whereas, and again, if you go sub, subgenre like that and make it a really tight market, you’re going to have some really hardcore people, hardcore fans that you develop, and you could crank out movie after movie for them, right?
Jason: You can, and you just have to look at it the same way, and I think some of you are probably thinking this way. Movies aren’t exactly cheap, so it’s hard for you, unlike the publishing world where you can write a book in the confines of your own 300 square foot, studio apartment and eventually get the world to buy what it is you’re selling. It’s very difficult to make money at that scale that’s worth watching.
I’m sure there are creative people that could run a camera for two hours in their bedroom and that might be interesting.
Fred: And for the record, my place in New York is actually jealous of the 300 square feet.
Jason: But to that end, so we have to take a look at a market when you’re in the planning stage and say, “Well, is there even a market that’s large enough that we could reach that would help us recoup our investment?” If not, maybe that’s not the movie you should make this year.
Fred: Yeah, and so then…
Jason: If that makes sense.
Fred: Let’s say that I came to you and I said, “Okay, my market is left-handed golfers, but the thing is that how much should I budget for making a movie that I can sell to left-handed golfers?”
Jason: Well, that’s the right question. Obviously, I’m not a professional when it comes to left-handed golfers. I’m actually left-handed, but I golf right-handed and I bat left-handed, so maybe you can explain that one.
Fred: That’s a psychotherapist thing, Bill.
Jason: Yeah, well, I’m glad Bill’s on the phone.
Bill: That’s right, yeah. Jason’s way—Jason’s way too complicated for me to fix, especially in the time we have left in this hour. Our hour’s almost up, Jason.
Fred: Yeah, if you thought exes…
Jason: Okay, well, I’m going to stop talking here, but Fred, to answer that question, one of the first things I’d do is I’d use a Google keyword track estimator and I’d try to use that to find out what kind of search terms are related to that and out of that, figure out if there’s any publications or if there’s even people that are interested.
Fred: Got it, and again, I think all of this is it doesn’t matter whether it’s now filmmaking, well, before everybody was trying to make blockbuster films and appeal to everyone. I think that all of us now, in everything that we’re doing, all we’re doing is trying to small down the niche, but make the niche big enough that it’s going to generate some money.
The thing about it is is even in a small niche, if you go to—like years ago I worked with a guy who was involved trying to market products to periodontists, so I know a little bit, periodontist. He gave me some numbers on that, and at the time, there were 5500 periodontists in the United States, which is a specialty, which is a sub, subgenre because it’s a subgenre of dentists.
Then he says to me, he goes, “Yeah, I want to produce this marketing program for periodontists.” I said, “Great.” So he produces this program and he wants to sell the thing or start selling the thing at $197 and he has no upsell. I said, “Look, dude, even you get 20% market penetration, you can’t make really big money with this.” I said, “When you have numbers like this, if this is your number, then what you’ve got to be thinking of is $19,700 as a price point for products not $197, because you can’t make a whole lot of money.”
I don’t necessarily think, for example, whether it’s in the film business or in any business, I don’t necessarily think a small number of people is necessarily a bad thing if they’re easily targetable. For example, Jason, to make this even more absurd, what if we were to make a movie about periodontists? One would assume that other periodontists would want to watch it, not an exciting thing. But the problem there is…
Bill: Lesbian periodontist zombies, that’s what I want to see.
Fred: Yeah, there you go.
Dave: I would watch that movie.
Jason: Left-handed periodontist…
Fred: Left-handed, yeah.
Bill: Left-handed, that’s right.
Fred: Yeah, who enjoy golf as a sideline and so that this…
Bill: Teed off at the zombies.
Fred: Right, so if we had this, though, the problem with movies, though, is there is sort of a very specific price point that people will pay, and I don’t think online, if people are buying these DVDs—now usually in most cases, Jason, are you selling them the physical DVD or are you selling them the download?
Jason: It depends on the market. That makes it even more complicated, I know.
Fred: Well, let’s just say the highest end of this, in most cases, what is the most you can sell the movie for?
Jason: Maybe a little bit over $20, if we’re selling a physical DVD, but when it comes to a downloadable product, most people won’t spend more than $5 a pop.
Fred: Okay, so let’s say it’s $25 max on the physical, and that’s fine, but at least we know that we could actually—so let’s just say, and the downloadable, how much?
Jason: No more than $5.
Fred: Yeah, that seems sensible. Let’s just say—so you then look at these guys and say, “Hey, guys, let’s assume you could sell 500 downloads of this and you could sell 500 and you can sell 100 units of this. That would come out to $2500 plus $2500, or five-grand.” Is that kind of the computation stuff that you do with them?
Fred: So the total is…
Jason: And then the other question is what’s that cost? What’s your marketing cost to reach the people?
Fred: Got it, so in addition to the production costs, the cost of product, you’ve got to figure out what the marketing cost is as well?
Jason: Yeah, but the good news is you guys that have been marketing other products for years and years and years have already done the homework for me, so I just use the direct marketing model to figure it out.
Fred: Yeah, no doubt. I mean and I just think that all this is to say and Dave Hamilton, let me bring you in on this. Now Dave, who has been, I mean I’ve just been—I talked to some people on the phone this week who I’m coaching and lots of people use Dave Hamilton and he’s the web marketing magician, but I think that Dave’s frustration is he’s trying to find something that will be not just services, but products. My question is what’s the progress you’re making on that front, Dave?
Dave: Well, it’s kind of crystalizing to me and it’s—I think the model that’s going to work is following what you and Bill are doing because the one thing that unites all of our customers is they want to do things online and they have frustration with the technology, and my thought is not teach them how to publish a book or how to do speaking or making a movie, but teach them how to be proficient with putting up a website, doing autoresponders, doing all these things that they’re not going to be a super techie or a webmaster, but it’s a skillset that people are going to have to have or they’re going to have to hire out somebody and waste all that money.
Fred: Let’s take our typical customers then. Option 1, and I saw that actually one of the folks told me that he did this, option #1 is have Dave do it all. Option 2 is sort of—Option #2 is have Dave do most of it, right? And Option 3 is have Dave show me how to do it myself. Is that right?
Fred: My question is—the format and we talked about this and I said you can use my Go to Webinar account for this, is that I think that in the case of this one, obviously, it’s you do it, so it’s not a problem. For these two, it’s got to be webinar-based or video-based.
Dave: Right, right.
Fred: I just think that this one in particular—so what happens is if somebody comes to you, it’s just like what we were talking about with—what I was talking about with Bill. Somebody comes to us and says, “Okay, I want to join your paid public speaker program. Oh, it’s $1787. Oh, you know what? I right can’t afford it.” You have to be able to say, “Oh, you can’t afford my do-it-all service? Well, here’s the next option down and here’s what it costs. Oh, you can’t afford that? Well, then I also have this one as well.”
If you have that all structured and set up, I mean I don’t see any reason why this can’t be doing what you want it to do.
Dave: That’s exactly where I am and I’m in the process of writing kind of an outline of what we cover because it can be pretty broad, and I really want to make it not a big techie nerd fest, but to say, “Here’s the practical skill you need to know how to do and we’re going to walk through it and have downloads and tools for them to use,” but where they walk away saying, “Hey, I can do it myself now.”
Fred: Yeah, and I think that again, what’s going to happen is let’s say somebody takes Option 3, learns how to do it and starts to make money, chances are—and they start to make some decent money, then they’re coming to you for Option 1.
Dave: Yeah, exactly, exactly, and this is what I find is when they find somebody—there’s an insecurity about technology and when you find somebody who not only knows what they’re doing, but is pleasant to deal with or answers questions, the loyalty is pretty strong, they’ll spend money with you because they know they don’t want to waste time figuring it out themselves.
Fred: Does anybody have any comments for Dave about how he could do this or improve it?
Bill: Yes, I do, and I also think we should go back to Jason. Jason, why aren’t you doing this? You should have the same option for information products with a coaching group for people who want to do ultra-independent films. I don’t know why we slipped away from that, but that’s what I was thinking when you started.
So Dave, the only comment I would have you and for Jason is I think what’s made these things successful, it’s not that I just been on Oprah, that’s fine. I mean that helps, but we do a launch and what I mean by that is we have a list of people, I have 8,000 people on mine. Fred has 38,000 people on his. I don’t know how many Avish has on his, but we do a launch and we plan for a certain date and we go out and we—if we’re doing it correctly, we send one thing on the e-mail, not our general newsletter. We send one thing on the e-mail and say, “Here’s our offer. Go and get this. Go to this page,” and you only send them to one page with one thing to sell them, and it’s not your general website. You send them to a sales page with a launch.
I think what I mean by that is you do a focused campaign that is within a week or two and you get a lot of momentum and you get a lot of excitement and some scarcity because there’s only so many places. I would start, if I were you two, with five. I can take five people in my coaching program. You have to apply and you have to be screened. That gives it an exclusivity and scarcity and we’re going to start on this date. If we have five people, we’re going to start on October 1st or whatever it may be and here’s what it’s going to cost you and by the end of three months, you’ll be able to, and you make a promise.
For Dave, it’s you’ll be able to not only have your website up and going, but you’ll know how to take care of the backend. You won’t be intimidated by the technical stuff. I’ll get you up and running in three months. It’ll cost you $297 a month. You have your videos and your tutorials, same thing with Jason. You’ve got your information products and within three months, you’ll have your plan for your ultra-independent movie where you can bypass the middleman and do your movie.
Fred: Okay, so Jason, by tomorrow I want you to have that done.
Jason: I’ll add it to my list for September.
Fred: Yeah, I think it makes sense though, don’t you?
Jason: I do, and thank you, Bill. I’ve been giving talks and some people have asked me what my services cost, right? So that tells me I’m doing something right.
Jason: Of course, I’d never thought it through, so I just threw out the number $10,000 and it’s not (inaudible 55:11) and I want to…
Bill: So if they want you to do it, yeah, yeah, yeah, if they want you to do it, that’s great, but if they want to learn it themselves, you have a lot of it in frozen information products that you don’t have to spend hours for money with, and then you do—come on in. Then, sorry, somebody came into my room, and then you offer the coaching component for a paid amount.
Jason: I like the coaching component. A subset of that is a membership site, and I know we’re running out of time, but at one of these calls I’d like to talk about that a bit too.
Fred: Well, it’s funny that you say that because Bill and/or myself will be going to a membership site seminar coming up in October, so we’ll report to the group.
Bill: It’s the entire $1200…
Fred: Yeah, so everybody will have to throw us a hundred bucks each, so, yeah.
Bill: That’s right.
Fred: What were you going to say?
Dave: Bill, I was just going to say, Bill, I appreciate that insight from and input from you and Fred and I’m kind of laser focused on this, what you just described, following your guys’ lead with the three levels and a webinar coaching, so by this time next week, I’m going to have some things to present that we can start—I’m going to start working towards a launch like that, so I appreciate that.
Fred: Excellent, hey, Jason?
Fred: When someone asks you at one of these speaking events how much you charge, you’re answer should, in very short order, be, “Well, I’ve got sort of a 3-tiered pricing system. If you want to have me do it all for you, it’s 10 grand. Then I’ve got this other thing and that’s $1997, and then I’ve got finally this other one, that’s $497, so take your pick.”
Jason: Fred, thank you for that. Yeah, I gave one where I was just on fire and I’m sure we’ve all given presentations where you just felt great. I said something very similar and it was just coming out of my mouth, and I thought, “Wow! That’s amazing. I can do that.” I’ve got to tell you, my product sales that day were through the roof.
Jason: So I had an inexpensive, hundred-dollar product with me, but after you’re telling people about how much you charge personally for your consulting and your coaching, I think that really raises the value and makes your hundred-dollar product seem definitely more valuable than what they’re paying.
Bill: I have one more resource; make sure we get it in before we stop. There’s a similar thing to Go to Webinar, or Go to Meeting, and it’s free. They just launched it. It’s called FreeScreenSharing.com. So those of you who are on a budget, go check that out. You can do free screen sharing, just like Fred is doing here, so you won’t have to share his account and it’s free, FreeScreenSharing.com.
Fred: Up to how many people can be on it?
Bill: I think it’s 200.
Fred: Okay, cool, nice, good. Good place to end. Thank you, Bill, for the comment. Thank you, Avish. Thank you, Dave. Thank you everybody for being on the webinar and we’ll see you next time.